Lyric 'progression' and 'pagination' and 'editing' in MS7?

Jan 22, 2020
Robert Johnson wrote

We been using MS since V4. We are now using V6 and have many hundreds of lyrics in our lyric library. We have them all setup and ordered in the lyric library based on the progression of the song like INTRO, V1, CH, V2, CH, BR, CH, CH.

I've imported the lyrics into MS7 and the progression of the song has been lost in the process - leaving just the main parts of the song (V1, V2, CH, BR). I can see where I can rebuild the progression - but that is a whole lot of work. Why isn't the song progression from MS6 coming across in the lyric import process?

We have built our MS6 lyrics such that each part of the song like V1 has all of the words for that verse. We also use a rather large font in our cues which means that once the lyrics is inserted into the show, it is very typical that the words to a verse spills over into multiple pages and show up as Verse 1a, Verse 1b, Verse 1c, etc.. We often have to fine-tune the pagination to make sure the page breaks make sense based on the way the song goes (See attached picture MS6Lyric.png). Then we 'save' the modification back to the Lyric library so that next time we insert that song - it has the correct pagination.

In MS7 - there appears to be no accommodation for the 'pagination' of parts of a song. When I see V1 in the cue - it just has one text box with text that spills off the page (See attached picture MS7Lyric.png). I really hope I'm missing something. If there really no way to paginate a part of a song? How do you build a lyric where something like a verse needs to be split up into multiple pages on the screen?

It seems that when I modify a part of a lyric that has been added as a cue that is used several times in a song (say make a change to Chorus 1 due to a misspelling) that change does not propagate to any other instances of that part of the lyric in the cue. It appears that I"d have to make the same change to each instance. That doesn't make any sense.

Lyric Library -vs- Cue Library Plugin. It appears that if I want to save the formatting of a lyric (fonts size, colors, background, etc.), I have to save that in the Cue Library. So it appears that once I have a song setup just the way it needs to be and to be able to reuse that in the future I have to pull it from the Cue Library - which means that I now have the song lyric in two places that don't talk to each other. So I guess you have to abandon the song in the Lyric Library. But what If one needs to change the song lyrics or the order of the song later? Where do you change that - in both places? I guess my question is why are the Lyric Library and Cue Library separate? That doesn't fit our work flow at all.

Sorry for the many issues - I was really hoping that moving to MS7 was going to be seamless and not result in a whole bunch of rework to what we have spent many, many hours working on in MS6.

5 Answers
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Jan 23, 2020
MediaShout Support agent wrote
I would be happy to help you. Thanks for being a part of our family for so long!

I totally understand the inconvenience of having to reorder the songs. Unfortunately, the formatting is just so vastly different in Version 7 since it's a brand new platfor with new code and new ways of handling the libraries, we could not bring over a lot of elements from the previous versions. This version is the cleanest version we've released since Version 3, as it does not carry forward any old code. Some of that old formatting done in the old way was carried forward from 3 all the way to 6 and it actually greatly affected performance and stability. So to be able to move forward and upward, we had to make a clean break in some areas. I'm afraid because the library format was one of them, it just didn't read some fields such as the play order. With that said, we are working on an "import" tool for V6 complete scripts. That will allow you to bring in cues with all formatting including background, etc. So that will be an option to bring in songs already formatted to save into the cues library. We expect that by the next update.

Regarding pagination and page breaks- this is another thing that you'll have to set in Version 7. But it definitely can be done. You just right click in the verse text and click page break, or press Ctrl + Enter. Once you have the song formatted and split the way you want, you save the song to your Cues Library for next time you need it. So the shift is that the lyric library now is mostly just a raw text database, and the Cues Library (for any type of cue, not just lyrics) is where you'll store songs and other cues that have the play order, formatting, page breaks, and even background that you want. The page breaks are done in the editor once the song is in the script, not the lyric editing window.
I'm so sorry about any inconvenience with this workflow. I think it could definitely be a good feature request if you would like to add it regarding the ability to add page breaks in the lyric editor, so they're stored that way within the raw text library, if possible. You could do that with this link:
Jan 23, 2020
Robert Johnson wrote
David, thanks for the responses.

I understand the program rewrite and how some things need to change, however, you really need to have a better thought out migration path for your current customers. Lyrics is one area that I'm sure all of your current customers have invested a lot of time in and not being able to bring over song progression and page breaks is kind of a huge ask for your customers to have to redo all of that - especially for us where we have volunteers doing the work. Also, since it is possible to build a lyric progression in MS7 in the Lyric library - I don't understand why it could not be migrated from V6 to V7, that would save us many hours. I have put in a feature request for that.

Since the Lyric Editor doesn't have any formatting capability - adding a page break feature to the raw text Lyric Library probably would not be useful to us as we don't really know where the page breaks will be until we can see it with the font size we are using.

Also, Ctrl + Enter is not working to insert page breaks - right click "Page Break" does work. Ctrl + Enter is only putting in a new line.

Bringing in old scripts will be a welcome thing as we have years worth and with do go back to old ones (like Christmas Eve) to get a head start on a new one. I have a question though. Since the V6 Cue and Lyric tables seem to be about the same in V6 (ie. you can save and refresh a lyric from/to the library and cue) - if you are building a way to migrate a complete script including Lyirc Cue's along with formatting & backgrounds - why couldn't you build something that brings in the V6 lyric library - including formatting, page breaks, and backgrounds and stick them directly into the V7 cue library - bypassing the raw text V7 Lyric library? That would save us hours and hours of rework.

I'm really hopeful that you'll be able to help make the migration easier and more seamless to your current customers. I guess I should have done a trial of the MS7 before I purchased the upgrade - since we have been using MS since V4 I was assuming that the migration path would have been more like before and not require this amount of rework.

I've got some more questions but will start a new threads for those.

Jan 23, 2020
Robert Johnson wrote
Oh, also ISSUE #3 you didn't address. Once the song progression is made in the Cue editor - changing something in one of the parts, like the Chorus, isn't changing any of the other instances of the Chorus.

Jan 25, 2020
Steven Axdal wrote
Hey David,
I'm agreeing in with Bob on this one. MS7 may be new and clean, but you still may need to do some serious consideration about how it's used. A chorus or refrain is generally repeated, and generally expected to look the same. In the past, making a change in one instance of a refrain makes the same change in further repeats. This has been extremely useful when I've found a misspelling in a refrain and changed it on the fly and not been faced with it in future repeats. (We're a Lutheran church, there are typically 4 verses and so refrains get repeated 4 times. Making a change once which affects all the other instances makes a lot of sense. The cue retains the knowledge of verses and choruses, it would be useful to make use of that knowledge to make a change in one instance common to replicates of that instance. It would be even better if that change could be propagated back up the chain so that a change made in the text of a lyric in a cue will affect the lyric in the library. If nothing else, at least allow Control-C to act as copy and Control-V to act as paste when dealing with verses and choruses rather than using right-clicks.
At least the cues can be modified, for awhile I was afraid the cues were just image files - once made unchangeable.

It was interesting to see how you treat repeated cue entries. In that case you can change the name of the cue. That gives me a way to reference songs by hymn number. I just need to format a song save as a cue and then save again so that I can refer by hymn number and background. Then I can change the background to fit liturgical season and save again, now identifying the background. When you've got >800 songs, referencing by number is a lot quicker than title. (Page number was another nicety which seems to have been lost in the upgrade)
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Jan 28, 2020
MediaShout Support agent wrote
Hey Bob, I totally understand where you're at and can't say anything in disagreement at all. We do wish things could have been smoother as far as migration of content. Luckily, things are so streamlined in the new workflow, users are getting up to speed quick even with content they need to create as fresh new cues, but I certainly wish I could offer more in terms of translating the old content.

When we get the tool that will allow V6 script import (and V5), it would open the door for something like what you mentioned for the automatic importing that into the Cues Library. If you wouldn't mind, please put that in as a feature request as well so others (and myself) can vote on it!

I will look into the issue you've reported about Ctrl + Enter not working. I wasn't aware of that, as it was working on mine last time I checked, but maybe something happened with it. We'll check it out.

On the multiple instances of Chorus 1 not updating together-- this is a change of Version 7. I can't say we really intentionally made it that way, but with the initial way things were setup, it lent itself to that behavior of not updating all of them. And this has actually been praised by lots of users. We hear about half and half from people who liked it the previous way (I am in that group myself) and the other half who actually WANT it not to automatically update the other choruses. You formerly would just have to make a Chorus 2 if you had a slightly different ending to the chorus than Chorus 1 for instance, but now you can just put in one chorus, but stick that change on the second instance of Chorus 1 once it's in your script if you need to. It could possibly change back when we have better "pagination" on cues, but I'm not sure honestly. If you change instances of it in your lyric library though, of course, they will all be the same.